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  • Posted by Dark_Prodigy 2 years ago. There are 20 posts. The latest reply is from dowell.
  1. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Hey, pretty new to this. Was introduced to Zeitgeist by a workmate, and was blown away, which
    I'm sure is not an uncommon story. I would describe it as feeling society has a sickness but
    not knowing what it is, in a way the film described that sickness and gave it a name which is a
    step in the right direction.

    I am really impressed with the ideas of The Venus Project as a possible Solution Ver 1.0. Jaques
    and Roxanne are no doubt very clever and have illustrated their dream beautifully so that each of
    us can see what might be if we focus. I don't think there would be many sane people who would be
    against living in such a society, and of course improving it over future generations once established.

    One question that many would have is how can we make that a reality? How can it happen when
    currently we are all locked into a monetary system with many levels of control built in to
    ensure future land developments and city planning follow the same old wasteful and profitable
    formulas of the past?

    The Venus Project once built would surely be much more inexpensive to maintain than our present
    towns and cities are, however to build this even on a small scale would be extremely ambitious
    and require a great deal of investment in materials, technology, and man power.

    Realistically such a mobilisation of people and funds, could take decades to achieve. However,
    being a generation Y'r, I don't like waiting for things, I want instant gratification, and "I
    want it NOW!"

    So how can we stop talking, stop dreaming, and start doing?

    Just the other day, while indulging in my favourite socially acceptable drug "television", I caught
    an episode of "Dirty Jobs with Mike Rowe" on ABC 2. On this particular job he was working with a
    team to make what's termed a "Cob House", which is essentially a centuries old building technique
    that builds very robust, fire, weather, and pest resistant houses using a mix of dirt, clay, straw,
    and lime, etc. It can be mixed and built by hand, once dried it's very tough with some houses in
    England having stood for hundreds of years, when rendered it looks just as nice as any modern
    house you see today, and can be built 2 stories high, maybe even higher. The best bit being it is
    literally dirt cheap (Oh yeah, that Pun was totally intended!).

    http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/cob.htm

    So with a little research this method could be adapted for use in Venus Project inspired communities.
    You could start by using your bare hands to build, however in the spirit of the Venus Project, it
    would be preferable to find ways of using technology to mix and assemble buildings with less and less
    labour and greater speed. Buildings and houses could then be fitted out with the latest in power
    generating, climate control, networking, and water saving devices so that near total off the grid living
    is achieved. Considering how much money you will save on the building itself, the extra coin can
    go a long way into making such houses state of the art, and very environmentally friendly.

    I believe by looking to the building techniques of the past where people didn't have delphin
    and metricon house and land packages, but instead had willing people and lots of dirt, clay, and
    straw at their disposal, inexpensive communities of the future could be built today that reject
    the overcomplicated and hugely expensive houses that most people currently purchase.

    It could be a solution for the time being at least until we can scrape together enough money to
    build machines that make the houses for us using extruded and moulded light weight composite plastics
    as Jaques and Roxanne illustrate

    What are peoples thoughts, just one idea we may be able to feasibly start building our own Venus
    Project now, and of course always interested in anyone else's ideas to kick a Venus Project community
    off sooner rather than later.

  2. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Also stumbled across Earthbags. They are essentially heavy duty plastic bags that can be filled
    with any kind of material you deem suitable. They come in a range of sizes, from small bags
    the size of sand bags that can be stacked up, to very very long bags that can be coiled around
    and around to create domed walls.

    A couple of links:

    http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/sustainable-village-provides-innovative-shelter-and-safe-haven/uncategorized

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player
    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Once you have your bags stacked up, windows and doors in etc, you simply render over the top with
    plaster or something and then your done, you have built a house that costs next to nothing, and
    goes up super quick.

    I like this much better than the cob building tech I was on about before. It's much faster, and
    anyone can do it. Apparently they are also very earthquake resistant, and of course being
    essentially sandbags, bullet and explosion resistant which helps if a warring army needs to cut
    across your property someday

    So all you need is to buy a block of land and spend a few weeks/months labouring and hey presto
    you have your very own house, which once rendered can look just as good, or even more interesting
    than a "traditional western house".

  3. bividium

    Changing building techniques won't lead us onto the path to a resource based economy, it's simply just a new technique that can play an important role in self sustainability and aiding the local eco systems.

    In order to get into the frame of mind in the general public that a resource based economy could be possible, there needs to be guidance and programs in place that already follow TVP guidelines which people can look upon and see if it works. In our current conditioning's and society structure, ridding the world of the monetary system is not only impossible, but it wouldn't change our way of life at the moment.

    I've been working on a program that establishes resource based economies in local communities involving residents, schools and various businesses. It's still in the early establishment plans, but my aim, is to get people on the path of self sustainability, which is one of the first steps in rendering money obsolete, and to create a sub economy under the monetary system which could eventually evolve as THE economy. Obviously resource based....

    It's called the Zenith Program, an Earthen Life initiative, you can take a look at what's up at the moment if you want at http://www.earthenlife.com
    I intend to work with the Zeitgeist organizers in the very near future to bring exposure to this through the Z community. So you'll be hearing much more about this soon... But if we as a civilization have any chance in future at eradicating this non sustaining damaging structure of society, than we must jump on the band wagon of grass root movements that lead to self sustainability and that promotes the real meaning of 'community'; the unprejudiced sharing of knowledge and resources...

    From possibility to actuality
  4. OffMilkRodeo

    Welcome Dark_Prodigy - this is an excellent first contribution.

    Re: earth bags

    I'm still not convinced that plastics are safe for the planet. I read recently in a brilliant book called "The World Without Us" by Alan Weisman that the polymers which make up plastics are not degradable by any biological organism so even though they break down physically and sometimes due to sunlight, at a molecular level the polymers remain intact. Something to look into I guess.

    As far as I'm aware they still use mud bricks to make buildings across the world and that seems like a perfectly reasonable technique for cheap, sustainable building materials. The basic idea being you set clay-rich mud in a basic wooden cast and either bake it or sun dry it. That said, I know very little about sustainable building methods.

    Where are you from Dark Prodigy? I know a group back home in the Blue Mountains, NSW who are looking into a sustainable living project at the moment.

  5. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Hey guys, thanks for your reply, I welcome and respect the suggestions and any constructive
    criticism, it can only help aid in moving us forward towards our common goal.

    OffMilkRodeo I am from South East Melbourne. I would welcome any links or info on anyone building sustainable living projects or who will be in the future. In regards to the plastic, I'm sure it's not perfect however I was reading a blog by a guy who seems to be the authority on this building method and he
    was involved in pulling one of these constructions down. It was apparently just uncoiled, the
    dirt or filling removed, rolled back up, and then sent to another community where it was reused to
    make another building. So although not very biodegradable, if it can be recycled if and when
    the house is demolished, I think that might be tick in the right box.

    The reason I prefer this building method to mud bricks and the like is the speed and ease at
    which a building could be constructed by an unskilled labourer, whereas making your own bricks
    or cobs in the other method I mentioned earlier is a lot more costly time wise.

    A "friend" of mine found a very comprehensive book on this building method on isohunt.com by
    searching for earthbags which is worth looking at.

    Benoit I've checked out your website and book marked it, sounds interesting and I look forward
    to hearing more about your progress in this area. I liked your point about a "sub economy" as
    I have also been thinking about such a concept myself. So that, if you have a group of
    farmers who grow vegetables, others who produce eggs and chicken meat, some who produce wheat
    and flour, and then you have people who provide services say a car mechanic, IT and web
    designers, skilled and unskilled labourers, etc Now if say some kind of electronic barter
    card was developed that each of these participants had, instead of paying cash when buying
    goods or employing each others services they could use this card which pays them in "credits".
    So for example a labourer spends a week working on the wheat farmers farm, they are paid 800
    credits for this, they can then spend some of their credits to buy some eggs, vegetables, a
    bag of flour, and get their car serviced. The credits are not loaned out with interest, but
    rather are interest free and so a lot fairer than the current money system we have now. It
    could be a big step towards freeing ourselves from the monetary system and put us on the path
    to a real resource based economy. May need the services of an economist, accountant, and
    IT programmer and security expert to make that a safe reliable possibility.

    I guess where I am coming from with suggesting cheap housing that can be built with abundant
    inexpensive materials is that one day a group could get together, buy a block of land, and
    build a community that has a technology building in the centre and then radiates in a circular
    fashion outwards as Jaques describes is the most efficient plan for a future Venus project.
    Members of the community would have their own housing complete with sustainable energy that
    generates most if not all of energy needs, and they have all the latest in technology etc so
    that we are not a hippy community living in dirt houses forgoing materialist needs (for want
    of a better description). In this community we have large greenhouses for vegetables,
    aquaculture tanks for fish production, all of which is automated as much as possible. This
    could then be a real life demonstration of a resource based economy to show the people of
    Australia and the world, so that they will hopefully demand from the government that we start
    building these for all people and make the switch to the new economy using Jaques plans that
    automate the building of housing etc. Of course if the government refuses to commit funds to
    evolve our cities and communities, people could always take it upon themselves to do it
    themselves following our example.

    Before seeing Zeitgeist I wanted to go into IT and create my on online business, or work for
    a company like google. I have already got qualifications in Web development in the form of a
    diploma, and was going to get the degree. However afterwards I changed my mind dramatically,
    and when I finish paying off my car in the next few months I am going to start studying
    biotechnolgy in the hopes that I may be able to contribute to a future Venus project in the
    areas of sustainable localised food production, particularly hydroponics and aquaculture. I
    think we will need many skills across the board in almost all industries if we are going to be
    able to pull this off, and I hope to see the movement continue it's growth and become sharper
    and more focused so that we can efficiently use each others skills and strengths to make the
    resource based economy a reality. By bringing The Venus Project to Australia and through these
    forums, I think the movement is off to a great start so early on, lets keep up the momentum by
    continuing to offer ideas and spreading the word to those around us.

    Thanks again, great to be involved.

  6. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Good grief... Those dirt bag homes look disgusting! They are a corruption of our native vegetation and surrounds. I would much prefer to camoflage and blend into the surroundings than portray like a skyscraper in the concrete city.

    Also plastic - very unnatural and potentially host to unknown future illnesses. I would much prefer native African building methods and construction thankyou.

    Survival is knowing when and where to look, and never why.
  7. dowell

    The owner builder mag ran an article on a 2 storey house built using hession/hemp bags filled with stablised earth. The owners are glad that it is finally finished as the labour component was a nightmare, when asked if they would ever do it again they said no. But they are happy with the home.

    I have studied (30 years in building and construction, domestic and civil works.) many different forms of alternative building methods, and the earth cob method stacks up very well in the all areas of ecological & economic consideration.

    Bearing in mind site location is the key to any constuction details, everything flows from there, ie no sense building cobb house in location with no clay, earth, etc.

    Site Evaluation.

    As in any RBE, all details of onsite considerations are met through check lists. These checklists can be simple, and basic through to complicated and convaluted. Again location will determine the checklist detail.

    Another big consideration is transportation, it is a cost to you and your environment.

    Even though we live in a monetary system we can think in an RBE way.

    Be well
    dowell

    earth care, people care and fair share.
  8. User has not uploaded an avatar

    suggesting cheap housing that can be built with abundant
    inexpensive materials is that one day a group could get together, buy a block of land, and build a community that has a technology building in the centre and then radiates in a circular fashion outwards as Jaques describes
    ~ Dark Prodigy ( 2 above)

    Unless illegal, most forget the DA approval process , and the roads / amenity required by council before you can build more than 1 house. Without expense, the type of house is not always user selectable.

    We live in a regulated society , a community title needs access roads , bio waste control (septic ,etc ) then a building application for each permanent dwelling. Financial stress forces illegal building.

    As dowel points out a hemp bag cob house should add appeal , esp when rendered (try that with the plastic bag method (plastic degrades over time, requiring much patching) needs : balanced ratios of well mixed earth types. Alumina and Lime harden when mixed with acid water (a few tricks to get bricks)

    Without experience : Expensive Experimental Venture ( EEV ) ... like getting married, 1st time.
    The alternative is a portable house, one that folds up if you need to remove it, or move it to avoid fines.

    Abundant power from the sun for hot water , cooking and power , so take advantage of Govt subsidies and get into a DA approved title you can afford. PROBLEM 1. : work is not available in remote (affordable) areas.
    PROBLEM 2. : remote areas with no employment tend to depreciate in an extended recession ( we are in one, will get worse after the commodities drop ( $600 billion U.S. Fed support to end, June 2011).

    Reality is, a lack of real-market demand for commodities. The govt infrastructure buildup is tapering off...

    To succeed, a team requires financial strength , like a company needs to borrow capital to invest in infrastructure. Large holdings in central growth areas like Byron , Sunshine Coast or Sydney are essential to survival. Only with an intelligent central backbone will this acquisition develop , one strong backbone is social values of Venus Project. Time is wasted in divided community efforts, each local chapter however small, with intelligence, is manifold to the group. It is a powerful syndicate when applied as 1 entity.

    It's easy to react like a monkey , its more wasteful for everyone to input their noisy argument , than to get behind one big plan ( Venus ) hey, I'm not trashing comment, just highlighting not to get trapped in the Dialectic the Govt has planned which the population are agreeing with, by lack of any central stability.

    Venus philosophy is that center for this group , with any displayed success become a political agenda. The disagreement so far is based on "resource based economy" replacing our monetary value system. Why not use the monetary system properly to overcome the objectors. Its called syndication.

  9. wildwabbit

    Talis, I agree with what you are saying completely.

    My opinion is (and I will eloborate my situation) that to a degree to take the plunge into a community of any sort (rbe/venus or not) is a life changing commitment. For many people there is the fear of loss, that can be in many forms, however I think that financial is the biggest scare for most peaple. To buy a share in a community and wondering what would happen if down the road they wanted to opt out? For me personally, I have looked at several properties over the last few years and it is employment prospects that scare me, or having to travel long distances daily for employment, I work with a few guys who travel 1-2 hrs one way daily for work, and personally it's something I do not want to have to do, it's just not a healthy lifestyle.

    The object of a community would be to self sustaining, with projects that generate an income for the community, thus eliminating the need for fulltime employment (or employment at all), but to begin with for at least a few years most peaple would still need to be able to service a substancial dept to buy into the community.

    The next major hurdle I see would be being able to buy into a community that as individuals we are all happy with, basic layout, structural designs, and delegation of resourses and labour, prioritising projects.

    A lot of people even with common goals can become very bitchy and negative when things don't go their way.
    Even though the people on this site do have common goals, if you sat down 20-30-40-50 people to propose a community design it would be an incredibly testing task.

    Just an example this is my opinion, I really do like JF's circular concept however I do find it flawed in one major way. Having things like power and water centraly dispersed is a poor, and a current way of thinking design flaw. If a central power source fails everyone is out of power, if a central water source becomes contaminated everyones water is contanimated. When servicing or upgrades on this equipment is required everyone is effected. I see no logical reason why all structures(buildings) shouldn't supply their own power and water) If a building fails, then power or water is simply routed from one or two neighbouring buildings.

    I think a big step for developing a community would be to have a fairly accurate proposal with achievable step by step development stages, estimated timeframe and budget estimates for community and individual needs, not much unlike a major construction project which essentially is what it is.

    Possibly a concept that might be a great start toward this is to have an online submission of idea's that could be refined as a group. Things such as:
    Building (house)designs, with accurate cost estimates.
    Purpose specific buildings and plant, like an extrusion workshop, or clay brick machine.
    Gardening, agricultural, hydro/aqua-ponic set up and costings and proposals.
    Concepts for a community lay out that could be expanded/extended as the community, including civil structures and services, with costing.
    Transitional housing, a number of dwellings for families to use until they are able to build thier own.

    I think if most peaple can see a plan that they like and feel comfortable with then taking the step becomes much easier.

    We all have our own concept of our own personal venus projects, it's time to seriously start getting the concepts onto a drawingboard and from their making it a reality.

  10. User has not uploaded an avatar

    power and water centraly dispersed is a poor, and a current way of thinking design flaw. If a central power source fails everyone is out of power, if a central water source becomes contaminated everyones water is contanimated. When servicing or upgrades on this equipment is required everyone is effected. I see no logical reason why all structures(buildings) shouldn't supply their own power and water) If a building fails, then power or water is simply routed from one or two neighbouring buildings.
    good thought, is it ZM?

    This is fine for ZMcommunity living with no town services, albeit there are seriously higher issues in play that members are not aware. That is to lead by example , not try to rework an already networked resource.

    Power & water are a routed service tried and tested. I agree with your plan where it is needed. The REAL issue is the PRIVATISING of these and other essential resources. Hundreds more issues, like who controls where our tax money is spent. You may notice an earlier reply to a 16 yo with a valid point of Govt squander. So many issues against basic freedom, its not funny anymore , its serious shit and we are being taken for everything in our bank.

    Look at the stockmarkets ... Who do U think is propping it up , the U.S.Fed Reserve. No-one wants it, but its happenin. What democracy ? WE are being sold out GLOBALLY. It doesn't matter if Jacques housing project appears plastic , or you cant pay for that new car you want with a resource based economy , any argument with those concepts is irrelevant to how brilliant a system that really is.

    The argument is an attack of convenience that those systems can't be found , moreso an argument they can't exist because they don't take an appealing form in the arguers minds eye. Its nothing more than a difference of opinion.

    Plastic is infinitely more valuable to use in construction than to burn the fossil fuel , and that is what Jacque is saying. Its not his fault the plastic he chose was white, and clashes with the countryside.

    In production that color not only blends in with the surrounding also holds polymer photovoltaic cells, made from plastic, to generate power. Also embedded within the flooring are peltier devices that heat or cool the inside with no pumping compressor required. If you believe that is science fiction, to the naysayers : get an education. NASA embed peltier devices into microchips with devices operating for > million hours.

    Gone is the need to buy & dump appliances. Novel nanostructures give power densities of Kw per several sq inches. Construction plastic is mixed with cellulostic fibre, I could go on ...

    When you hear an ZM argument, sympathise the fact: there goes another monkey honking his new horn.
    Someone without concern for the future, and the fact that communities are being stripped of their resources.
    Who is going to rename the GoodGuys "Buy & Dump" ? Jacque has done that decades ago.

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