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  • Posted by Dark_Prodigy 2 years ago. There are 20 posts. The latest reply is from dowell.
  1. dowell

    Decentralised living units have have thier good and bad points, so do cities, lets have both.

    I have been busy with my lot lately so not much posting from me atm, I'm off to Eden Ck project community today to inspect earthworks for acess roads and drainage, it will be the 4th site inspection of properties in the northern rivers area, this weekend. I do have a fulltime job as well to fill in spare moments.

    Great to see some serious discussion leading to positive action,

    earth care, people care and fair share.
  2. User has not uploaded an avatar

    The next major hurdle I see would be being able to buy into a community that as individuals we are all happy with, basic layout, structural designs, and delegation of resourses and labour, prioritising projects.
    ~ Wabbit : reach an agreeable opinion from 10, 20 - 30+ members , is a point in hand.

    As U said, "we all have our own personal Venus Projects " ... what remains is the planning.
    Once a hyperlink to topics are created, I will include links to raised threads on RENTED LAND.
    Until then , I try to include in next post. A mention was made of land ideally to be residential.

    Yes, specifics are important, what about hard-to-escape council compliance ? Someone wants a low cost Yert and council says No ! First thing is to agree on the range of acceptable housing within any group.
    My personal "Zero Visible Addiction" Articles of Association no doubt trim the audience, however there is enough in-house "work" to build a very successful company producing low-cost housing, and other products, only possible in a corporate structure. So it comes down to how many shares one buys in the land-holding, with an international mix of applicants, say a 50% takeup of 11 , I agree 2 publish the Articles, in WiKi.

    Several reasons why buildings may not act co-operatively in routing / power water :

    1. Solar and water collection areas between buildings would vary according to design/cost/preferences.
    2. Very unlikely to standardise community housing ( there is a plan in the pipeline; COMM-unity).
    3. Large power / water demands (intensive garden) cause standoff to sharing - who does what issue.
    The contaminated water issue can arise when roof collecting material is less than desireable, eg: canvas

    Naturally D.L.U's (decentralised living) are our focus. On a sizable property a dam is the backup source of water. Its pumped up to the rain tank, for each house within PVC plumbing distance. You only need 1 pump / dam , 3-way valves per house in feedforward series connection minimising hose + tank/dam 2 any tank.
    Property A on Sunshine Coast, town water is lowest-cost, 4 Mullumbimby each cluster of 5 needs a dam/bore.

    Property A has 1 advantage , its FREE ( relative to buy ) so folk will come and go in a natural selection.
    I mention HABIT FREE living , not found in community living, which tends a free spirit living/ indulging.
    There are serious people around ,they may smoke but don't habitually stay up all night... and achieve goals.

    A community I personally am interested to support is all about reaching goals.

    Reality bites, in any partnership the honeymoon is soon over. Compromise is healthier than conflict.
    Therefor the plan may be exercised like a computer program, with conditional branch instructions :

    IF $ ZEN > estimate & resources available , loop ZEN ..... IF $ ZEN < estimate , GOTO Plan B

    Contingency planning is not something most folk are good at, especially for accidents, bad timing, or impulses. I get paid Thursday , see U Friday morning (then I went out with the boys and did my pay ... it won't happen again. Yes it will, history has a way of repeating itself. Community plan must factor it in.

    a big step for developing a community would be to have a fairly accurate proposal with achievable step by step development stages, estimated timeframe and budget estimates for community and individual needs, not much unlike a major construction project which essentially is what it is.

    Main problem there is Budget Overruns, ( B.O.) brought on by change in taste /design / layout / facility.
    So like a construction project ,once deposited, is allowed to finish unimpeded, unless $ from heaven.

    Whilst the above hopes to address the good work in Wabbits post, as Dowell points out action is the real-life experience in this practical world we live in. Its just so easy to forget the ruling forces, which like nothing more than conflict, and conflict is guaranteed in any community that replaces future for self.
    WE are told each day we live in an uncertain future. That is because it has been replaced by "SELF"

  3. User has not uploaded an avatar

    say some kind of electronic barter card was developed that each of these participants had, instead of paying cash when buying goods or employing each others services they could use this card which pays them in "credits". So for example a labourer spends a week working on the wheat farmers farm, they are paid 800credits for this, they can then spend some of their credits to buy some eggs, vegetables, a bag of flour, and get their car serviced. The credits are not loaned out with interest, but rather are interest free and so a lot fairer than the current money system we have now.

    Note Trojans comment : "not loaned out with interest" Interest causes inflation. The need to pay back more than you borrow, while what you buy depreciates. Inflation is a cat chasing its tail, there's more ahead but to get there we have to move the whole load round and round. Some smart trader said why not put the price up on each turn. That is the Money Lender's grand plan. And we're buying it. Idiots or what ? Ripleys museum

    Venus Project once built would surely be much more inexpensive to maintain than our present towns and cities are, however to build this even on a small scale would be extremely ambitious and require a great deal of investment in materials, technology, and man power.
    I like this guy

    You could start by using your bare hands to build, however in the spirit of the Venus Project, it would be preferable to find ways of using technology to mix and assemble buildings with less and less
    labour and greater speed. Buildings and houses could then be fitted out with the latest in power generating, climate control, networking, and water saving devices so that near total off the grid living
    what about the UN special services ( SS ) that come to "re-climatize" your fast paced community?

    OK forget bulding by hand, unless you're a potter. You have the right idea but the wrong tools.
    So easy to enter into the Utopia of "Freedom" when there is no freedom. Where are you building these loose earth ( illegal in Aust ) contraptions, maybe OK in Africa, there is an easier way. WE demand it.

    How can it happen when currently we are all locked into a monetary system with many levels of control built in to ensure future land developments and city planning follow the same old wasteful and profitable formulas

    It can only happen when there is sound theory , with infallible teaching ... that can stand up to the "old wasteful system inquiry" which then may obtain unlimited funding to show a brave new world ... more likely with FUTURE not SELF. Takes a bit of getting used to, believe it , and you will feel it.

    Where do you think all those Christians get their belief , to do the small good in this world ?
    IF you can't feel your faith you don't have any.

  4. wildwabbit

    Talis and Dowell,

    I haven't read all of the posts and am nowhere near as knowledgeable as you guys when it comes down council/government restrictions and regulatory acts when forwarding a proposition for a community style subdivision, however I do have confidence that through compromise, negotiation and perhaps a degree of good old ingenuity, a working functioning community should be able to be planed and become an achievable reality.

    One particular thing I continually hear thrown around is the misconception about cheap housing being not up to building codes, or several styles or construction methods are not allowed in Australia. I personally know people who have built homes out of self made clay brick and rendered straw bail. And I have personally had a good look at rammed earth recently. All of these methods (minus labour costs are relatively cheap, the downside being labour intensive building methods.)

    I personally have many years experience building “ Tilt Panel” structures, mostly warehouses and factories however I have built 2 houses using this method as well. The houses were two storey and provided almost 800m2 of internal floor space each, (they are the two largest homes in Springfield lakes, mansion size) and the basic structure minus internal fit out and roof cost were sub-contracted by my boss at the time and done for a price of $50,000, each, this cost included labour costs and a profit margin. Tilt panel (pre-cast concrete) structures are incredibly cheap, and labour efficient, and in comparison to a timber or brick home are much more durable and even cheaper to insure. If you have sufficient space, the casting beds can used more than once, reducing costs and labour if you wish to build another building, doesn’t even have to be a similar design, as long as the panel sizes don’t exceed that of the last one.

    A recent personal favourite of mine is something that dowell has mentioned in another thread. The straw bale shot-crete dome home. I reckon I could build one of these in a week on my own (basic structure). The only downside is it could be a little painful to fit out, interesting to say the least. (have a few ideas in mind to make it as easy as possible.)

    The way I see cheap housing as being divided into two groups

    1. Naturally existing, minimal cost, building materials...but a very high intensity of labour.
    2. Institute or pre-cast with purchased materials.....but minimal labour.

    Both methods fit in with the Venus theme but both conflict as well.

    The decentralising idea, as I said was my opinion and I can see advantages and disadvantages to both systems, however I personally like the idea of each structure in a community being self sufficient yet complimentary. Costs to decentralise are much higher, that is the obvious problem and building in an ability to re-route sources is additional infrastructure cost as well even if it is just buried pipe and cable, over many dwelling and distance the cost stacks up considerably, but in a perfect world where cost isn’t a factor I believe the benefits would outweigh centralised services.

    I wasn’t trying to sound negative in my previous post, I personally am very time poor (one of two working parents with three young children) and lack time to investigate all things for myself, however I am convinced with the right planning that a project could get off the ground very successfully, my frustration is not being able to be involved in the process as much as I would like. I have unavoidable commitments for the next 18months, and it is my goal to be in a position where a community will be an option at the end of that period.

  5. dowell

    Wildwabbit,

    We all have knowledge to share. The ZM has what I call a common unity, one that I can relate to.

    But here lies the dilema we can't live without the root of all evil $$$$ ..........ATM.......... so I say get over it and get on with it.

    This RBE is not likely to happen without both money and time, so we have to work towards our goals, even if it will only be realised by our childen's children.

    You are more likley to hear about failed communities than sucessful ones, (A bit like ultralight accidents) as they are not news worthy. And many of the people in sucessful ones are by nature reclusive.

    Earth homes are labour intense, once in a lifetime stuff, love etc. The price of strawbales has gone up 400 percent in the last 20 years (when I was wrapped in the idea) add that to your build costs?

    50K for 800sq mtrs nice going, how much for 200sq ?
    I have worked on many Tiltwall projects and they have all been commercial, and I have also pondered the idea of use in domestic application, bang for buck they stack up well, environmentaly not so good with loads of embeded energy (cement) and a 40 year life span, calcification. The walls of a house actualy make up only a small part of the costs of building. TiltHemp walls would be better, or domes, a number "excuse the pun" of legal Hemp trials have been completed with good results in our area.

    On decentralisation, The Eden Ck project has plans for 3 clusters of dwellings with 3 solar power stations to supply power, same with water, large dams and tanks, piped to dwellings. Each dwelling has the option to be self-sufficiant or dual.

    Time strapped for 18 months, thanks to the dilligence of people dedicated to forming communities that reflect the spirit of the times you will have access to vast library of information, we are our grandparents children. Just need to tap into what's relevent to your needs. But hey you already know that.

  6. User has not uploaded an avatar

    1st, my ref to Trojan was to Dark_Prodigy (late night)exploring variation on themes, healthy approach!
    2nd, WildWabbit delivers practical alternatives in this thread, while I jump around several members quotes. No-one thought of Wabbits delivery negative - its real life stuff, makes sense, an on-line submission of ideas that could be refined as a group , a la - virtual community. It does help to first assemble a group in harmony with the methods , like selecting the work you prefer.
    I may start a Forum willing to place finishing touches on marqee abodes.

    3rd, Please relate the word "monkey" to Neo-Nazi babbling chumps,who launch badly researched slander.
    Noone on this thread approaches this attitude, though I note aussiebob a bit on his own , I agree with him on the plastic bag issue, I woulddn't build one, unless it was almost the last option, same for a Yert - it's just too cheap for a permanent solution, when there better alternatives for a less miserable sustainable community than one to be stuck with unsaleable structures because of a taste difference.

    Yet a marquee is a magical structure both easy to install and relocate. Carpets look fab in this.
    Our good Arab friends have not only impeccable taste, and a most practical background.

    Now thats out of the way, consider Wabbits "I think that financial is the biggest scare for most people" as gospel...buying an ordinary house outside of proven growth areas is really scary. Thats why community title is on the rise, its more affordable. And there is no better time than NOW - why ? The affordable housing initiative is opening councils to relax their over-regulated nature.

    My somewhat left of field discourse has a great ambition behind it, albeit is designed to be visible by 2 types: 1) super industrious folk able to act without risking money 2) an international community prepared to grow & learn together under a recognized teaching hopefully alike Venus. WE already are the latter.

    At expense of popularity may I suggest we all want different utopias ? And that creates disharmony, which fragments the group. Unbridled Individuality has its price. The human race competes with everything, individuality included. ITs just not cool to be the same. Sure, that's why money buys so many things.
    And while you're busy in the mirror they switched quality for junk , individuality spread to big department stores with little packets that we mostly oooh & ahhh over. Never mind the color fades, the plastic breaks , our fix got satisfied before it broke , and our attention swayed by endless little packets.

    There are at least 10% ready now , so thats >50,000 members. Out of those at least 10% would be in a position to travel once a year. That's > 5000 members. Out of those 10% would be experienced.
    At least 500 as part of an experience. Instead of fighting fires , these members solve issues.

    The first is how to find resonant beings without argument, to fill vacant elemental positions within a designer molecule forming community X. As the good Wabbit said : (we need) "concepts for a communitylay out "... I feel a few good molecules need to be designed for purposeful properties THEN the members to fit with their individual needs. That way its something we understand (more or less by this time) like looking for the type of job that suits... I can imagine the backlash ... The corporation model... That needs a new topic... Soon.

  7. User has not uploaded an avatar

    WildWabbit , Tilt panel is one big future for housing. Especially when lifted from a slab (timber edging only molding) Most arn't even aware this as an option. Easy to design any shape / size windows with frames used in the molding, what could be simpler ? That is, for robust buildings.

    your closeness to the Sunshine Coast may kickstart Zeitgeist project on my residential 12.7 acres.
    The 800sqm tilt-up could be positioned on prepared level ground, I may be able to deliver a patented cement to extend the panel life indefinitely. I have a brushwood panel coated with 3- 5 mm of this material, will try to extract if from ex-partner , and post video of its capacity for shock (unbreakable coating).
    Unlike anything cement.

    As the mineral is not readily available in Aus (a big fertilizer company seems to have bought a supply license) this may just be standard premix , and at your costing we could build 2. I can see a few hands from a group wishing to live in Maroochy Shire, may be up to a bit of light formwork, whilst living on this fabulous Queensland hillslope ? There is a 3 acre canopy rainforest with 2 internal roads.
    Many hands make light work. Do we see 3 - 5 hands ?

    I note your 18month commitment prior to community living. This only requires your part time supervision, even 2 hours per week , and only if we get the hands-on team. I deliver machinery PC220 Excav + loader.
    Naturally we build in a return for your trouble on top of my paying invoices as we go.
    That could easily be a cash return, or interest in land.

    Of course there needs to be a prospective community team ... Who is ready for it ?
    Or do I post international , even woofa ?

  8. wildwabbit

    Dowell,
    I wasn't complaining about my situation, just stating it. If you asked me if I were to choose between having more free time or my kids the answer is obvious. I'm putting together componets, that I will bring with me to a community when I get there, I've started building my dual alternator F&P wind turbine, and have seven more F&P motors and an LG to turn into turbines as I get time, I'm awaiting a delievery of 600 solar cells to build my own panels and I've been oggling an 18kw inverter on ebay for some time now. I'm collecting old bath tubs and polly pipe from the curbside chuck out, for an aquaponics system. And I keep promising myself I will learn how to propogate mushrooms....I'm doing what I can, when I have time, just wish I could help more on a comminity level now, rather than a bit later.

    My parents get straw bails at cost price $2 from a neighbour as a trade off for storing them in one of their large sheds. The neighbour also bails dads foder for free(which isn't a lot anyway). If you were after a large quantity I could inquire, but they use most of it, they may be open to a discount once off sale, the last few seasons have produced more than they need.

    Talis
    Don't forget Tilt panels still have to be engineered and held together by large roof perlins and steel plates. One way of keeping the cost down is by having the building engineered to use standard "off the shelf" perlin sizes.

    I'll send you an email regarding your offer sometime in the next few days, I would be great to meet and discuss things in detail at some point. My commitment is finnancial restriction, as I am half way through a bankrupty. ie I cannot personally borrow money till this period is over, which is why I have given myself this timeframe. (note: the insolvency wasn't building/construction related) I was dragged through the legal system at great expence to recover money owed to me through a business, and ended up never seeing a cent. (it actually set me free as I have no dept)

    I admire your very upfront offer, and look forward to hearing more details.

  9. dowell

    Hi Wildwabbit, Sorry for late reply

    With all this spam I have lost track of some of the topics, I do try to respond within 24 hrs to all posts referenced to me.

    I understand you have to do what you are doing and I commend you for it, your contribution to this forum has been huge and I feel cofident that will continue, your knowledge and skill will get you where you want to be.

    The written word only gives us part of the understanding. I respect of all of the regular people on this forum even with our differences we have the same concern for a better and just life for all and that is what gives common unity its power.

    I try to be as literal as I can in view of the short commings of the written word, the openness to interpretation, the undertones, etc. J Fresco talks about this problem of our language being so open to interpretation, I can respond to direct objections as they are clear and directly understandable, my conditioning in life has taught me to respond with equal amounts of venom, this conditioning has not worked for me or the objector. I am not perfect and I don't try to be.

    I believe that cooperation is more productive wholistically in a RBE than competitivity in is in a monetary system. Or even in a RBE.

    Thanks for the offer to source Straw bales at $2 ea, is good price but they need to be absolutly dry and transport weighs into the equation. Being in the Northern Rivers with loads of moisture in the atmosphere and high rain fall Staw bale building here requires some effort to prevent decay, not to hard to avoid with the knowledge, despite this there are many great advantages with straw bale buildings. Eden Ck has pasture land that may be planted out to grow straw, we are more likey to need to find a baler or hire one. Also I need to look into cement free render, natural organic. We have a number of different options open here and with different peoples idea's we should have a diverse range of organic/recycled building structures.

    The first and most important thing with building permanent stucture is location, everything stems from there once you have your location you will have the starting point for research, you could spent a liftime researching all forms of building and that in itself can be fullfilling, but if its for your own long term home, you can narrow the focus.

  10. dowell

    Any one for the first time considering starting up a MO community in Aus' will be in for an education in frustration, and you will be paying many $$$$$ for it in many ways.

    The pioneering spirit is deep within the Aus culture and some of us still feel it, the diffence is now we have accumulated vast amounts of knowledge, and we can still see how hard our ancestors fought for their/our place here.

    This spirit is deep within many cultures.

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