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  • Posted by t0n3s 2 years ago. There are 17 posts. The latest reply is from t0n3s.

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  1. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Although the word religion can be used to describe a set of beliefs and values, the word religion has colloquial connotation to "a desire to understand the universe and/or the existence of the supernatural". For this reason ZM/TVP don't agree with this label.

    As for beliefs and values, JF believes all opinions should go out the window, and people should just work on human intelligence.

    I debated about the topic of human values for a loooooong time, perhaps i could share. For instance, JF talks about removing prisons and that people who commit crime are doing so as a result of their environment, either through reasons of social stratification or mental illness. Academics aside as to whether this is true or not, his proposal goes something like the following:

    We would have laws and similar to current systems for a long time during implementation. Initially we would remove laws that don't make sense and keep laws to ensure people are safe from crime. Over a long period of time we would have no further need for imprisonment because it does not serve any productive effect.

    Now that people get their food and other needs met, and arn't victims of social stratification, the theory goes much of the crime would vanish from society. This transition would continue.

    Mental illness based crimes would be harder to solve. Now that people arnt employed with useless professions, much more of humanities time will be spend on understanding humans and our behavior. Hopefully over time the last of people being imprisoned due to sickness would be phased out with each behavioral remedy.

    Now, whether or not this is achievable is extremely hard to say. I certainly agree that a large portion of crime is hypothetically preventable if the temptation is gone through the removal of social stratification and cures to mental illness. Its hard to imagine that people will not still want the "PUNATIVE" aspect of the criminal system though... which is that the law works to correct you (sit in a cell and think), and punish you (for the sake of the victim, and as an incentive not to commit crime again). Its an entire paradigm shift that one day people who are violated would want the offender to be healed rather than punished. I can see how this is possible but to accept the whole world will agree requires a complex projection on how society will change.

    On a side note, I personally envision one day, way into the future, we would have software that could interface directly with the human mind and with the existence of this prevent behavioral issues and mental illness resulting in crime. It seems far fetched but I assure you that one day it will be possible, its just whether or not we decide to utilise it.

    ---

    So with the above example, and many hundreds more discussions on values you will have, eventually you learn that JF says there are no 'values'.

    People will act intelligently and do what they want. Any unintelligent act is a mistake which will be learned from, or society will help you learn from it.

    These so called "mistake" are not subject to opinion, it is a fact for the relevant application of positive or negative effect on society.

    I'm sure as soon as I say this you can list 100 things which you think are ethically grey areas that need to be debated, but I assure you they have all be done on ZM main. The only thing you will ever prove is that this concept is impossibly difficult to implement and not everybody will agree.

    I suppose a similar exercise you could then assume is listing behaviors and whether they fall in to a category of negative or positive effects on society.

    ----

    If you would like to test one, abortion, euthanasia or even something simply like theft and or juvenile violence, you are welcome to post it here or at ZM main and somebody will debate you on the merits of TVP.

  2. OffMilkRodeo

    Personally I have enough trouble convincing people ZM isn't a cult so all this talk of somehow connecting ZM with religion is honestly disappointing to see. Yes, religion is a huge factor in the failings of our current socio-economic system however replacing it with a "new" one is preposterous in my mind. This all comes down to Jaque's statements on 'established vs emergent' societies. This entire thread is about trying to establish a hypothetical policy of values - pardon me if I'm missing something here but isn't that precisely the kind of thinking we're advocating against?

  3. Freyacat

    I would agree that euthanasia would make a very interesting topic for debate. I have thought about this topic a lot, particularly as I get older, and have been to Exit workshops to learn about end of life choices.
    Many people would agree that voluntary euthanasia options should be available to those who have incurable conditions which severely limit quality of life without prospect of improvement.
    I have seen a film "Mademoiselle and the Doctor" that is about an 80 year old women from Perth who committed suicide despite the fact that she was well and quite fit given her age. As this remarkable woman explained, she had led a very good life, was not depressed or suffering from any other psychiatric conditions, she was of sound mind, was an atheist, never been married (but had lots of love affairs in her younger years which she fondly reminisced about), and never had children, most of her friends and peers had already died and she simply didn't want to hang around and see her body and mind deteriorate, and may be end up in a nursing home. Most people have a problem with her choice and even reacted angrily but I do think she had a right to do so. Under our current legislation it is not a criminal act to suicide (what, they gonna lock up your corpse for life?), but assisting someone can and has got people into serious trouble such as imprisonment.
    Recent legislation has made it a criminal offense to disseminate this kind of information by any means, including electronic, and websites giving information will be filtered.
    I cannot imagine that I would ever have the courage to end my life, I'll probably try to squeeze as much as possible out of my life span - but given the right circumstances, i.e., either uncontrollable pain and loss of mental facilities and mobility would sorely tempt me to exit myself. Really, one shouldn't have to sneak off like a criminal to end one's life.
    P.S. This reflection was probably brought on by taking my 88 year old mother to visit her 85 year old friend in the hospice this arvo.

  4. OffMilkRodeo

    I'd like to suggest that everyone check out the international forums where there are discussions happening on all of the topics which have been raised here. Also I was thinking that if anyone is going to start a topic which is universally applicable to every ZM member then shouldn't those kinds of topics be on the international forums, being that they are not exclusively Australian?

  5. User has not uploaded an avatar

    My way of thinking is that,

    1,) Marriage
    As there is no fiscal problems, and less problems in the work place,
    people will gather together more and more of a internet of tribal behavior will immerge
    where understanding will become more, true that people will be more promisculse but we are seeing that so greatly more now, with media that children are watching where if you have money its ok and encrouged to make a sex video and such.

    I doubt this type of behavior would exist because no one is rich and media would be so large and diverse that it wouldn't matter any more.

    I doubt marriage would be affected, people do like to partner up, and so do animal's
    pigeon's can example this, they only have one mate for their life time.

    2,) Crime
    Moral understanding will be learn't from the parent's, it is the mother and farther that fail to raise their child because they hand them over to people that they do not know, to teach them things that the parent's have probably forgotten,

    Crime and education go hand in hand, there would be violence some times but not at the extream's as there is now, because people now are categorized by colour and social standing,

    even emotional crime can be limited with by the parent's at a young age showing their children by example as I have stated this would be achieved easily.

    3,) Religion
    As long as the people in "authority" of this do not do things unmoral and stand by the true teachings this would be acceptable, though with not needing to work,
    and communication at its highest point I doubt people will cling to this,
    The current media is slowly dismantling the values of this now.

    4,) Greed
    Kids will be kids, and Man-child's will be man child's, blah blah
    Even now people are teaching their children to be kind hearted and what not,
    but as we go further into this world we are in, the purpose of schooling is not to teach children, its to install the wrong values in them, along side with limitation's

    When you turn 16 they ask you what field do you want to work in, and you have to make that choice.

    With family friends and a larger community basis for teens, and active programs and parents that get them involved in community works at a young age, do gooders are created,

    This is just my thought's, And if you botherd reading this post grats to you

    -Peace

    -Peace
  6. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Well I loath religion so I'll leave my comments to myself but here's what the great (late) george carlin thought we should do with the ten commandments:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Video

  7. User has not uploaded an avatar

    wow is the first thing that pops into mind. I knew using the word "Religion" would cause controversy. Horrid word, horrid concept.

    I was more about a "code of ethics" style thing, than a religion as such.

    Much has happened in a year.

    Thanks for your input but I think we can lay this one to rest.

    Cheers

    Let's do this

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