I think society will decide what value each Input of labour has according to the needs of himan beings to live happy healthy sustainable lives. There will obviously be tasks that would be less desirable to do that require doing such as unclogging the waste treatment system, and there will be other tasks that will require massive commitment to education before they can be performed such as brain surgery. In a dirreferent thread I spoke about the movie i watched on youtube called The Secret of Oz. In this movie they talked about what existed before money. One of the things they spoke about was used in England of old. They simply used sticks!. The sticks were of different sizes and were split down the middle. Each time you performed a task of value your half of the stick would get a notch, along with the other half. As the stick filled up with notches you would move on to a thicker stick and get a notch, much like an abacuss works (an primitive counting device). These notches were then traded for godds and servides you aren't able to provide for yourself. Ofcourse there had to be a repository for the second half of the stick to make sure no one fraudulently notched their stick, and this was held locally. I am not suggesting this is a future ideal to replace money, i only state it to describe what existed before money to provide a way for people to earn value fro what they contributed. Something would need to be introduced because unfortunately not all humans are capable of alturism, or desire to be alturistic all of the time. I used to belong to a baby sitting club. I earned a token each time I baby sat and could use those tokens to get my own children baby sat when needed. This wouldn't work in a moneyless system because of the different values placed on different types of work due to unpleasantness, or time commitments associated with education as I stated before.
It's an intriguing problem to come up with something, but coming up with something is what's required because people can't provide everything they need by communally living on acerage somewhere in a modern world. The desire isn't to go back completely to an agrarian society, but to live sustainably by making the best use of resources and technology.
About this topic
- Posted by Cognisant 2 years ago. There are 16 posts. The latest reply is from cerberus.
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TrickyJeffries, has distinctly pointed out the problem, have gun , will travel ...
Current system does force to think selfishly - thats ingrained from school in competitive contest - & remains thru business , and everything in life. Always a race to get somewhere quicker than the others, or get bigger (bananas), shinier (apples), more powerful something. The whole game is tought to enslave us.
Because there's an incentivce to make something bigger (or smaller) when folk want something bigger (or smaller) The incentive to market advantage, this attitude is unhealthy to everything except selfish.
Stuff the other company we will add a sports steering wheel , then glamorise it, with bikini clad girls.Obviously humans are suckers to advertising. I make products that I never advertise , if not good then nobody will buy them - but you know what, I give away my products and folk question why would U give away anything good. Its got to be in a prettty throw away box with velvet and pearl lining - Conditioning.
Now it takes a lot to change conditioning. Its got to be done early - at school, and its not on the menu.
ADults will not change, they will pretend to change, but sneak back to old habits, i broke several which is why I am able to speak this way , at the same time doing nothing wrong. As everyone becomes an orator so they break the habits holding them back - as a prisoner in the free world. Searching , looking never finding.
The way it is , even your mother pretends sometimes , finding it easier to cope or just let it go. We all know that. That is only to protect her sanity. In a perfect world, there is no need to pretend.Noone can love as a mother , this is maternal instinct millions of years in the making ..is it likely that such instinct is required in a "total trust" community - almost. How likely is that going to happen ?
At least in a timeframe of 100 years ...say 50 % conversion ..1000 years say 90% , because these good folk sacrifice opportunities to help the collective. The fewer corrupt the greater the riches...to steal.Wildwabbits close to ideal, want something, go and make it at the factory, contribute pro-bono for facility.
He and I can do it, but the others cant , in fact unless they are genetically gifted... now barter , or sell.
Roxxie is another great soul to have around , how many of these can you find ? Not enough to go round.Finally theres just 1% of bad apples , and you know what that does. It only takes 5 to ruin a planet.
And that is well documented in the banking sector , the 5 banking brothers, frowned upon by the French even during the revolution , but when that stockmarket was turned against them, Rothchilds were toast of the town. History repeats itself , and so it will again , and again. There is something higher than money its just easy to manipulate , no matter what Constitution you start out with it Will Corrupt.
Humans live on Want St. Even the Amish need to have a strong Master , in a modest group, right Nathaniel ? -
Often I think it incredible that I hate my job with a passion, yet equally love what I do with a sense of pride and equal amount of passion.
In a sense I guess I resent the fact that the mojority of the projects I work on I simply see as poorly designed irrelevant structures that are just a waste of resourses. Engineers and designers these days are coached to over engineer structures, making the building process difficult and costly because they are usually paid on a percentage of total cost basis, the more costly project the more profit for the engineering company. Any intelligent person on any building site will tell you that the most miniscule changes in a design could save millions in cost and man hours however these are the changes that you would call the engineers cream.
There is no structure I have worked on that could not have been built much cheaper much quicker with an almost identical result. As an example, I am working on that ugly mass of concrete at the Brisbane airport at present, the new 9 story carpark. This carpark has design features that are of no asthetic value nor structural purpose that have added enourmous cost. Multi level structures consist of three basic things, collums, beams between the collums, and decks that span the beams. This carpark design has stagered splayed beams, basicaly meaning that the beams between each collum are not uniform, the width and depth of these beams vary from one end of the structure to the other, there are no two beams on each level that are the same. In most buildings the beams have little or no variation unless is structurally nessicary. This carpark has a huge cost in having to custom build the forms for each beam rather than reusing them over and over which saves huge amounts of man hours and material, there must be around 3000 beams in this structure and I have to take my hat off to who ever thought of designing them this way, they must be laughing all the way to the bank.In a non-profit driven world, many things will simply become easier more efficiant and quite often safer. I imagine the structures of a perfect future being a pleasure to build, it would be nice to build something one day that actually makes sense.
I've forgotten the point I was trying to make at the start of this post!
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..........ahh yes my point!
I think my constructive nature stems from my father, growing up as a child I remember the first house we lived in, was not that far from a rubbish tip. With the exception of a couple of large steel roof beams, I remember my father building an enormous shed entirely from salvaged scrap, corogated iron, hardwood, even the doors and window frames. The neighbourhood where I grew was the typical north queensland smalltown suburb of the 70's, we all new every child and family and we all helped each other to a degree that these days seems alomst foreign.
I remember when my dad was building his shed there was never a shortage of mates to help, and it was very handy to have a 100ton KATO parked a few doors down. When dads shed was built there was never a shortage of cars being repaired, rebuilt or sprayed, dads shed was part of the community and there was never anything expected in return. I remember many projects like my dads shed in the neighbourhood, fences, extensions, patios, house lifting, as a small community there was really nothing anyone needed that they couldn't do themselves. There were equally many wild BBQ's to celebrate each completion, we kids would roam wild through the streets without a worry in the world because there was simply nothing to worry about. The world back then was a wonderful place that returned in spades what ever you gave.
The act of giving for the sake of giving has infinate more value than any kind of money or bartering system. My wife has a saying that what you do for others will be returned 10 times for your children.
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Funny Wabbit, your point was : hate with passion, yet equally love what you do. Irony is the tragic part of this existence, its on the rise because of political convenience to explain corruption. Yes those contractors got a fatter margin on quotations. Is that a real worry to you ? What about the banks ? :
If you look at your project it is the perfect excuse for foreign orders. Plans are deliberately complicated, and overengineered - explain how it blows its budget by almost 3 fold. The mining tax was an attack on the private profiteers, let the suckers (public) pay for it instead with carbon tax, and inflation.
Living on the Gold Coast years of watching the huge filling operations of LandCom / Australand left questions : hundreds of acres would have a lot of old machines parked doing nothing for years, where were all the new machines, and soil deliveries ?
The same poor crowd ultimately responsible to repay the deficit blown on propping the markets up, along with the predicted 500 point correction, check how Gold*** Sachs made close half a trillion on this fall , made 5 trillion on the 2008 crash... is just allowed to continue, insider trading on the backs of sucker sheep.
I believe the Israeli call 'em cattle. In other words just "produce" - hand reared government sponsored consumer rabbits. No, bend on the good Wabbit I hear an escalated riot in London today, this very minute ...This is the sort of thing which makes folk sick (apart from airborn virus)- even subconciously , wait till the next sell-off... Easy to say, its a free market, ITs not. The visible result is painted by the global misery , which does NOT HAVE to be. It would be more sensible to distribute money to the unemployed, who would only spend it, but that does not accomplish the manipulated stock control, where in a small timeframe a handful of families accumulate the trillions of lost dollars. Remember wealth like matter cannot be destroyed , just converted into other forms of energy ( currency ) and when the stock crashes all those losses are in fact the fat cats profits. The market is an exchange basis platform, even tho trillions of dollars are printed to support "buy" orders , any downturn is initiated by design , and the so called losses are in reality, insider PROFITS. The trading public make up so small a total volume, that money some make in a falling market ( question of timing ) is insignificant compared to the huge designed "LOSSES" from institution investment. The foreign DEBT, that your kids will be forced to pay back. Oh, Ha ! Ha !
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We need some serious hacktivist groups like "Anonymous" to triple the 97% of digital money throughout the world. This is a very managable possibility. Everyone would go spending crazy and money would quickly become worthless. With the large influx of cash people will have the sense of a resource based economy with everything being free and readily available. We need to educate people to be self sufficient, e.g building our own personal renewable energy sources and be able to sustain living standards throughout the collapse of the economy. As The Venus Project begins to build cities people will have places to go and more cities will be built. Too my understanding there will be no form of currency at all in a resource based economy. We need to actively inform people, how a resource based economy can directly affect each individual and how they can "live off the grid" spread awareness and demonstrate the wonderful phenomenom of our next evolution to the Science Age.
~Cerb
"Never talk to people to win approval, talk to people to inform."
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