1. 
   Patience when dealing with everyday individuals. marcoacero

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   I'm just wondering, how is everybody dealing with everyday people? I mean, specially when explaining what the VP or ZM is and what do we stand for, it can be an exasperating experience, sometimes with uneducated or not very bright individuals.

   I want to know what have you found more effective because sometimes it is just frustrating when the status quo is so imprinted in some people's minds, and so fixed that in order for a single new idea to be accepted, a bunch of unrelated beliefs come resisting the new imput and supporting their current view.

   I guess this bring the question: is the expenditure of energy even worth it?

   Marco Acero
   INTP Secular Humanist
2. 
   Re: Patience when dealing with everyday individuals. David Zwolski

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   is the expenditure of energy even worth it?

   truly - idk, but if no that places us in a dead end. so i personally am not concerned about the answer to that question.

   yes... ever being on this planet has a form of 'programming'. Depending on that, it might take a lot of factors to change it.

   I personally think that 911 is a great catalyst for breaking that programming, and if a person is absolutely in denial - i refer to history inside jobs. whenever i can take the ground to move such a long topic. Thou because 911 is such a lengthy topic, its not something that i would recommended to move on a casual conversation - you dont want to leave that conversation in the wrong moment.

   With everyday people, those random ones that you bump in everyday - i try to add something short in between the paragraphs.

   Simple ' well, they razed the fees, after all - its only the bottom line that matters for them'.

   a person talked with me about his belief to the idea that there has to be some kind of divine driving force in the outer space - "just look at how its smart" - he reinforced. I replied -" Yes! you are right - its called physics".

   I love debating with religious people for some reason - whenever i meet one, i tend to ask him:
   To what god you pray?
   Are you Monotheistic, Panentheistic, Henotheistic or maybe Polytheistic?
   Which bible you use?
   Im trying to overwhelm the person with questions about his faith, and often i find that they do not know the answer, or cant answer the question - offering a 'answer; that is a mass of subjective, non tangible notions.

   Very often, such people then turn on to defense mode unconsciously and state various resonong why they are here.

   When i get to that ,stage i usualy try to end the conversation on a fact that i can pull off from the back of my memory, usually simple science works -as all Christians know that religion is unscientific and the notion of a personified god ( or one that copulates with human beings and casts lightning and folds) is proven to be false.

   That is usualy not enough, as it takes a loooooong conversation with such people to eventually de-program them. the key debate topic usualy becomes then - the notion of -belief-, where statement alone ' i believe in x' is a mandate for a religious person to reinforce their mental 'mind lock' disposition.

   Yes - its a disposition commonly reffered as 'mind lock' that you are dealing with thoes "everyday people"

   The secret is not to bombard them with more inforation that they are locked against ( thou that can work, on a per case basis - ie, if a physisist, then a physical essay about 911 should do ), but to delve into their labirynth of though and find the exit within it.

   In example to religious programing - a study per religion and their bible is needed - where i personaly point out the contradictions and atrocities with in it.

   The teachings of Jesus.
   

   Luke 14:26
   'If anyone does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.'

   http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

   Google is your friend ( use it while he still is )
3. 
   Re: Patience when dealing with everyday individuals. marcoacero

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   Thanks David, great points.

   I guess the question about the expenditure of energy being worth it, is a relevant one to ask, not to question whether or not to continue trying to grow awareness but rather, to notice which ways of engaging with people are more effective and in which situations.
   This because it is not only futile and a waste of efforts and time but sometimes, if not done right it creates resentment and it is like a new wall is lifted in case any future dialogue arises.

   Doesn't feel quite right to think too much about it but we ought to remember that the indoctrination methods used by the current institutions are well thought out. And that's what we are up against when trying to raise awareness.

   So maybe we could come up with a more natural flow of information, so people are more inclined to adopt new ideas without getting into an overwhelmed/blocked state.

   Unfortunately it is nothing but pure advertising but I think without getting this information flow together we won't do much against the constant monetary/religious/political propaganda.
4. 
   Re: Patience when dealing with everyday individuals. Freyacat

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   Yes, I think it is only too easy to forget how overwhelming the ZM and TVP information can be to someone who is not at all accustomed to these ideas. After all, its like ripping someone's world apart, and that is very scary. Defensiveness and suspicion in the face of having long-held beliefs challenged are normal human reactions which are not easily overcome.
   It has been my experience that levels of education or intelligence are not related in how this information is received. In fact, one of the variables seems to be the degree of difficulty a person has experienced/still experiences in surviving in our current system. May be the less a person perceives to have a stake in the current system in terms of it rewards, the more likely they are able to relate to ZM and TVP ideas. Those people are more likely to have the initial "AHA" moment, which can lead to further questioning the present conditions and envisioning possibilities for the future.
   There are quite a few people I have talked to who admit to a pervasive sense of unease about the future of humanity, but at the same time they are sufficiently rewarded to buy the distractions that would prevent them from seriously questioning the status quo. May be the next round of GFC will tip them over the edge and into the direction of new ideas.
   Another type of person I have encountered is the "yeah, I know its all fucked and its too late to do anything, we are doomed regardless."
   I really do believe, that even when a person initially rejects those ideas, that once the seed is planted they may seek further information and understanding at a later stage.
   In the meantime, yes we need patience, and yes, we do need to find ways to engage people in different ways, and we need to develop resources which are relevant to people's everyday lives. There is a lot of work to be done.
   Whenever I feel I am getting really pissed off because people are not getting it, I think of the Jehova's Witness with his Watch Tower Magazine who stands on the street corner week after week, year after year, and hordes of people just passing by and ignoring him. He cuts a sad figure and I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, but heck, I sure admire his patience and level of commitment.
5. 
   Re: Patience when dealing with everyday individuals. marcoacero

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   Hey Freyacat, you're right; the relation between new-ideas-acceptability and stake-in-current-system is the most clear. Which makes me think of another issue;

   It is not as valuable for the cause that john doe joins the movement as it is say a politician which could impact much more people due to his or her high influence position. These people could be a more important asset for the project and, it would be that much harder to make aware of issues, not only because they gain so much from the current state of things but more importantly because their value to the movement (their influence) is based on the status they draw from their actual condition.

   The more influential = Harder to change
   This highly influential individuals would be the best target for the faster change. Of course, the fastest change might not be the most desirable.

   I would say the tendency for the ZM is to attract a higher percentage of young people with relatively low stake in the current state of things. This X and Y generations will slowly but surely get more and more stake in the world and get to more influential positions as they grow older but they will have already a different though process; a more analytical and open to new ideas mind, and they will take the VP and ZM concepts wherever they go.

   Most social changes take generations to take place and I would suspect that all the work done by us now is going to be reflected probably in ten, more likely twenty years. Not so much for an incremental conversion rate, but for an incremental empowerment of people who can make the changes take place.

   This takes me to the point where I don't agree with Jacque Fresco and Peter Joseph; leaders are needed now and will continue to be needed. They'll just have to be leaders of a different kind.
6. 
   Re: Patience when dealing with everyday individuals. OffMilkRodeo

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   MARCOACERO - I must disagree with you on the stated value of individuals to 'the cause', your evaluation and judgement of any individual as being more or less influential is social stratification - something we are supposed to be working to disassemble. I think it's wrong to see anyone as any more or less valuable to ZM. I would say that there are some who contribute more or less to ZM in its current form but I think that to evaluate people on their contributions or potential contribution and target them as desired members would be counter productive.

   This movement will naturally take a form which is directly driven by it's contributers. This is the way of all organic systems. If the movement begins by attracting artists then it will be a creative movement at first, if it attracts activists then it will take a direct action and protest based form initially, if it attracts scientists and technicians then it will be a technical movement. My point is that if there is a hierarchy of more or less 'valuable' individuals according to our values then we immediately set up a foundation of inequality and my understanding is that we're trying to counteract that kind of elitist thinking.

   The energy is always worth it I think. Just because you don't observe an immediate result doesn't mean you haven't made a difference. This is something I had to remind myself often as a youth worker - sometimes I'd sit down with a kid and feel like nothing we'd talked about really changed their behavior at all and then sometimes I'd get kids telling me that something I'd said in passing without even thinking about it had totally changed their lives and moved them off in a new and positive direction. What I'm saying is that it's important for us to be planting the seeds of thought in the minds of others as often as possible and when that seed has taken root the person will fertilize it themselves by seeking more information and a community like ZM to connect with others who share their ideas.
7. 
   Re: Patience when dealing with everyday individuals. marcoacero

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   OffMilkRodeo- I thought twice about using words like "valuable" and such, and at the end I thought we should write without constrains, and certainly we perceive people's value changing in different situations and for different people as a musician has a value in a stage and another in a quantum physics debate podium. Of course, I'm talking as a musician, not as a human being or anything of that sort. I might not have convey the idea well as it is the case sometimes with written word.
   I know "value" in the context of people is often a condemned word and politically incorrect, I tried to say that in the context of a social movement, there are always key individuals that before any change could be seen; have an area of influence bigger and could alter the speed and extend the social change takes place and in that context these individuals have higher value as without them the movement would not achieve its purpose.
   And for a movement, leaders are really valuable and this remind me a video I saw at ted.com let me look for it... ok

   http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_movement.html

   I hope the embedding works if not How to Start a Movement

   And for sure it is great to talk with young people and to provide tools for analysis and open mindedness early on to prevent indoctrination by the current religious/political/economical institutions. Certainly youth workers have a lot of influence and their job carry a lot of responsibility.

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