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  • Posted by mercuryspooning 1 year ago. There are 46 posts. The latest reply is from Phem.

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  1. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Hi All,

    Apologies if this is in the wrong place but this is my first post and I had a little trouble navigating the whole thing.

    Anyway, to the question at hand;

    While I whole heartedly agree that we need to move to a resource based economy and that that change needs to happen now, I'm also totally perplexed as to how exactly we do that.

    I just came back from seeing the third Zeitgeist film.
    It (as always) posed a very interesting and thought provoking argument for why we should have this resource based economy and how it could work but it completely skips over a very important transition phase.

    At one point the film says "Imagine if we had a second Earth that was essentially a blank slate".
    Well that's great to imagine but we don't have a second Earth and we have to come up with a solution for implementing this in today's society on our current (and only) planet.
    While the vision of this film is important, implementing its ideas are entirely more relevent.

    Even before I saw the third Zeitgeist it got me thinking on how we could implement such unprecedented change. Unfortunately I kept coming up with the same answer - communism (marxism).
    Thankfully Zeitgiest to the rescue! I was sitting in the cinema and right as I was thinking it one of the guys on screen says "some people think we're communists or marxists".

    Finally! Some clarification... But no, he explains almost nothing aside from the fact that marxism assumes that resources are infinite.
    They completely skip over the fact that maxism and communism are supposed to be the ideal utopia that we're talking about but both failed because in order to teach humans to work for the greater good, a governing body would have to take away everything from everyone and allocate it on a need basis. Once everyone is living this way then the government would disolve and utopia acheived.
    Historically utopia was never acheived because men wanted to hold on to their power. (simplified but that's communisim)

    Now, I understand that a resource based economy is different in a number of ways with mechanisation and of particular note is that a computer would make all of the important decisions but heres the big question that comes from all of this: how do we get there?
    Even if a computer like this existed and was functioning right now why on earth would any of the world leaders listen to it? Nothing short of a world wide revolution would work, meaning, we end the monetary system.

    Suppose we do. Then what? Rely on the good will and faith of the people to keep industry pushing forward but in a now more resource conscious way, safe in the knowledge that life will get better from there? The mechanisation for it all wouldn't exist yet so they would have to for the time being. That's a lovely ideal but hardly realistic.
    It's a complete awakening in the collective human consciousness that seems to be required - not impossible but having never been done before, I would like to meet the man that thinks he knows how.

    So this led me to wonder; can it at least be implemented on a national level? Would that even work or do you need the worlds involvement as a whole?

    So to reiterate my question:
    How do we implement a resource based economy?
    Does it need to happen world wide, all at once or can it begin at a national level?
    And how (at least in the transition phase) does a resource based economy differ from marxism or communism?

    EDIt: hah, a slightly longer question than I intended.

  2. User has not uploaded an avatar

    gr8 question,i have also wondered bout the how .its well and good and to say this is wrong but an solution must b given,there will b many who resist

  3. wildwabbit

    Great question, and probably one that could create a lot of debate.

    I think TVP has to be marketed like all things that come to rise in the current system.

    Like any product, idea or even religion, the only way serious finance,resources and governments will back such a Herculean task, is when they can be presented with real life working models.

    You wouldn't buy a radically different car from a drawing even if the designer said that it worked better, and suited your needs better than one you already have. TVP in comparison is colossal. The scale of things are as epic as the journey it will be. TVP will only ever receive the resources it will need when people can see actual proof that it will work and is better than what they already have.

    Actual living functioning, proto-type communities will be needed to entice, resources and sway opinions. Maybe offer a timeshare system for people, so people can develop a taste. Imagine an advertisement, " free resort style accommodation for anyone willing to attend interesting social development and design seminars " the fine print would read (you will be responsible for collecting eggs and maintaining the hen house during your stay)

    The scale of such communities are only limited to the resources of those who are actively involved in them, not just those living in them.

    Starting/joining a community is not suitable/viable for many of us. The best contributions for most people might be to find a nearby community and contribute idea's, and knowledge, or even just a little hard yakka. If their are none nearby, maybe plan a short holiday to one. I am certain the people in them would welcome any help.

    It won't matter how many drawings, plans and idea's are on paper. Nothing is ever backed that has not proven itself in reality.

    Or we could all start looking for billionaire, widows and widowers, that would be my next favorable option.

    If your ship doesn't come in, swim out to it.

    Cheers

  4. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Oppinion:
    Community work, Just getting out there at the moment is a good way.
    This is just like computer programing.
    Or just like building a house,
    Plan it all out first,
    Then plot out the land,
    dig up the plumbing,
    Place the foundation down,
    Put up the walls,
    Put on the roof,
    mock up the electrics/plumbing,
    and so on

    Way's I see we can start VP:
    -Local Community volenteering
    -Education as to why this is a better way
    -Repeated and constant good will acts towards Younger generations
    -Active personal life style change towards more VP idea's
    -Obtain resources in large/small mass
    -Create tools in which we will need to build structure we need
    -Design of social system
    -Design of life style/broad knowage Education system
    -Design and production of fully automated factory's
    -Acquire Lazor metal cutting tools
    -Replacement of this monetary system into trade style system within TZM
    -Data base weather/area properties
    -Acquirement of land in one area
    -Total city design before even starting projects with expansion in mind
    -Integrated computer systems between all small communities/chapters
    -City creation

    Summation:
    If we can get the lay out of the demo house's already built by Jacque and Roxxane
    Some work is already done,

    Harder parts really are the getting material's,
    But let me explain this,

    Lets say we have 5,000 active TZM members world wide.
    Each member donates 10 Dollars to TZM in bulk thats 50,000 dollars we can buy
    Land, steel, Iron, copper, silver, gold,

    Me personly I give 25 dollars to the red cross, and I see nothing from it,
    But if done properly, and openly like TZM is ment to be,
    a Vote system will be created as to what we do with the plastic paper,
    a text message is sent out to all TZM

    -Land (Storage/Housing/Development/Farming)
    -Steel (Factory/Housing frames/tools)
    -Iron (Tools/machines)
    -Copper (Piping/wiring)
    -Silver (Industrial use/Medical equipment)
    -Gold (for circut boards)

    A Iphone/Android TZM application should be designed where we can check
    what things we are in need of and how much we need to complete it.

    -Peace
  5. wildwabbit

    After my last post, I thought a bit more about the idea of an actual profitable VP style resort, and if this could be made attractive to potential investors. I know this sounds a bit of a contadiction to TZM and VP principles but the purpose would be to educate and entice peaple while at the same time having a relaxing holiday. Any profit above what investors are owed could go into other VP projects and/or the big one. The resort would of course power itself and incorporate things like a hydroponic farm, mushroom farm, and possibly chickens and other poultry for the resturant menu. Of an afternoon customers could go and choose thier own ingredients for their evening meal. Could even produce things like herbal soaps and other natural cosmetic products to be used in a day-spa on the resort. Could even give customers a chance to make their own products before they use them?
    Peaple more and more are seeking alternate lifestyle holidays, I think if done right the idea could have potential.

    Does anyone think this might work?

  6. User has not uploaded an avatar

    I agree with you there Wildwabbit,

    I come up with idea's a lot but I scrap them because they are money driven,
    but I mean if we use all profits to go towards buying metals and land,
    I think it's ok, because we cant 100% stop using money now can we?

    Restaurant:
    We can design a computer operated kitchen,
    with a set list of meals, and a delivery system to tables via convayor belts under the floor though the middle of the table, I have been slowly drawing up how it could work,

    that way we show the VP idea, ontop of cutting cost :D,

    and for massager's we can just buy 1 hand massager and just make them pass it round..
    -_-; I will think of a better way later.

    But love the idea.

  7. User has not uploaded an avatar

    I agree with you there Wildwabbit,

    I come up with idea's a lot but I scrap them because they are money driven,
    but I mean if we use all profits to go towards buying metals and land,
    I think it's ok, because we cant 100% stop using money now can we?

    Restaurant:
    We can design a computer operated kitchen,
    with a set list of meals, and a delivery system to tables via convayor belts under the floor though the middle of the table, I have been slowly drawing up how it could work,

    that way we show the VP idea, ontop of cutting cost :D,

    and for massager's we can just buy 1 hand massager and just make them pass it round..
    -_-; I will think of a better way later.

    But love the idea.

  8. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Hey Wildwabbit, don't take this the wrong way but I think if you're still seeing TVP as a communist or utopian society then you should do some more research on it. Maybe listen to more of Jaques lectures and try to open your mind even further than what you have so far. The boundaries you know today are set in place by the current society we live in, and are only boundaries of the mind, not of the physical world.

    Having said that I would like to try and answer your question of transition in the way I understand it working over time.
    I believe the key to the VP is automation and the replacement of human labour by machines. One of the most commonly asked questions by many people is who will cook the food, who will handle the trash, who will fix the machines if they brake down ect. So to truly convince people that this society would be better they need to see the people living in this world not having to deal with these day to day issues.
    Take for example the comment earlier about going to the resort but having to look after the hen house and collect eggs, this automatically throws doubt on the whole thing because we are essentially going backwards. That person never had to collect eggs before, they just went to the shop and they were on the shelf for them, and even if it seems like a small price to pay it's still servitude and that goes against the VP ideals (NO money NO servitude NO barter and FREE from mundane tasks).

    Now having said that I believe one of the most important things we can do in the pre stages is to design these machines that automate our everyday tasks and start to put them to use. I like the comment from Phem about the restaurant that is completely automated this is already a reality in our world today and the complexity of such systems is only complex to todays standards, if we keep developing these technologies then we will see more and more ways to replace human labor. See

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugins

    So lets try push automation even further, even if they are only just at the concept stage, share them with others on the forum and if you can design then in autocad or autodesk inventor and push the reality of the VP ideas closer and closer to reality. Can we imagine if a group of us could get together and take one of Jaques self erecting structure designs and bring it to life. Do you think that would capture peoples attention?
    From Energy to Food to Building to Medical there are just thousands of new automation designs just waiting to be discovered!

  9. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Ok Good on the Japanese, but the robots they build are stupid,

    There is no need in my opinion to make a "Chef" robot that looks humanoid,
    You don't see the kitchen in restrunts so make it in to a box unit in the wall.

    To give a computer/robot a face is just a waist of power time and effort.
    because it wont understand any thing other than what we tell it,
    so if we program it to love shit, it will serve us shit with a happy face.

    What we have to do, is make this our self, So we can provide it to people with no cost.
    because the company's will make you pay for it in every way they can!
    They will not give it away for free.

    It is up to us now, to really build the future, and not let some one else build the future only for the fiscal rich.

    All we have to do is find people who know, or are willing to learn how to do so.

    Self cooking eateries
    Self serving eateries
    We can do this with good designing of a factory line kitchen, under the ground,
    and then to serve the food, have the food come up from the kitchen, though the middle of the table and roll out.
    The system I talked about with your Iphone/Android application fits in here as well,
    Say you like your food hot and spicy, At the end of your meal, it list's the venue in your application, and what you had, If you liked it but want it hotter than it was, you put a + to the picture of a chillies, next time you go there, and you order that same dish, the computer reads your application, then your order, then your request, and it puts some more chili into your meal, and bam u got some hot chili over 9000 the way you like it.
    Having it all run from true energy.

    IMO we stop calling it green energy, and start calling it true energy,
    if you have to refine the mineral 5 times to get some thing out energy of it, its no longer what it used to be and a one use thing.
    Ignore the old way's like we do now all though out history.
    This style of thinking belongs in our fictional history books written by us,
    the Victors.

    ( or the way things are going, the fictional history video's )

    *Edit*
    I have almost finished the rough design plans, of what I think, I know some ex apprentice/Cooks/Chefs/kitchen hands.

    So I will en-quire about it with them and go over the plans to see if I am going about it in the right way for the food,
    The machines on the other hand I will need help with, I do know a Engineer but his in america and I tried to show him and tell him about Zeitgeist but... we were in communist china at the time, So it was so very hard, and so many question's of his I could not answer

  10. User has not uploaded an avatar

    I agree with you Phem about the humanoid robots, there is no need to make them look real. but the more we develop machines to replace people the closer we get to not needing money, and so even if these machines are made today for profit, the technology can some day be used when were ready to make the transition into a resource based economy. And also the easier it will be for non technical people to see how this can be done. If we show them it can be done they are far more likely to believe it than if we just tell it can.

    Good luck with designing the restaurant though, if you ever get it up and running make sure you use it to promote the VP and give some of the profit back to help other projects like.

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